question on tenor clef

[adrianallan]

Im teaching myself a bit of Cello at the moment

I struggle when the clef changes from bass to tenor clef and I take some time to work out the notes.

So I wonder how long it took you people to learn to sight read the tenor clef, if you can. I am thinking tenor trombone and cello players. Do any other instruments use the tenor clef, I wonder...

I am puzzled why we really need the tenor clef. Is it just for historical reasons?

Surely the treble clef would be easier to use.

I note that in my cello book, the tenor clef is generally used for extended passages above G4, the G above middle C.

[adrianallan]

And yes, I do do that daft trick of thinking of the notes a notch below where they are.

It helps a bit but feels a bit amateurish...which I suppose is ok, because that is ultimately what I am!

[Ed Sharpe]

Bassoon also uses tenor cleft and even String Bass. And if you read Renaissance Vocal music you will find that it is used for the Tenor Voice (something that I think makes much more sense than the modern conventions, but I acknowledge that I might be the only one in this world of 7.099 billion people to think so.)

[Joseph]

Jul 20, 2013 21:57:08 GMT adrianallan said:

And yes, I do do that daft trick of thinking of the notes a notch below where they are.

It helps a bit but feels a bit amateurish...

Adrian, I have to take exception with your assessment.  You're talking about a tool and like all tools you need to be familiar with it through use.  Have you ever used a wood lathe?  I am sure you understand it's purpose.  But would you expect to turn quality table legs the first few times you held a piece of oak to the cutting mechanism?  The use of "amateurish" in your context makes it sound derogatory.  It should not be derogatory to be on the upside of the learning curve. IMHO . . .

[Ed Sharpe]

Well said Zepposnonno

[adrianallan]

Yes, you are right...any useful trick is fine until familiarity sets in.

Thinking back I must have been the same with bass clef and treble clef.

Nobody said that learning music was anything less than a lifelong process.

[ceg]

Strangely enough, the tenor clef is great for music in, errr, the tenor range (D below middle C to F above middle C) which it does without any ledger lines or changes of clef. For both at least the 'cello and bassoon, this is the range of the instrument which has the greatest "expressive" qualities and therefore most used in solo-istic passages.

The way that cellists learn to read tenor clef by the way is to treat it was bass clef, but move one string up - so for instance, a note on the middle line of the bass clef could be played on an open D string; therefore the note on the middle line of the tenor clef can be played on an open A string. As a bassoonist who learnt to read tenor clef the hard way (pretend it's treble clef and down a note), I felt very cheated when I first discovered this!

With older music (Haydn and perhaps Beethoven) the higher cello parts was sometimes written in the treble clef, but sounding an octave lower. This practice died out as the usual range of the instrument increased upwards (you can now theoretically write as high for the cello as the violin) and the "at pitch" treble clef became necessary!

Is G4 the G below middle C, or the G above middle C? From your description, using the tenor clef for extended passages above the G below middle C would make more sense. I for one, struggle when parts in the tenor clef go into ledger lines.

One final thought - try saying the names of the notes in the tenor clef as you play them -this may help get them "instinctively" into your brain better (not so easy on the bassoon...)

[adrianallan]

Thanks for your input, Charles.

Yes it is possible to transpose the tenor clef to the next string on the cello. However, since many of the tunes use the top string, there is nowhere else to go, so in the long term I feel it is better to think of it as you did, one down and an octave down.

In my book, which is arrangement of scottish folk songs for cello, a recent and very professional looking edition, the tenor clef is used for extended passages of higher notes, so yes, I do mean the G above middle C and above. Mainly it is where the tune is played up the octave from the first time. So yes, most of the notes still have ledger lines, but obviously not as many as in bass clef. In the case of that G, one ledger line instead of 3.

Here is a link to the book, it is one of those links where you can look inside a few pages of the book to see what I mean.

by the way, the second tune is way above my ability range. I guess it is about grade 6 plus.

book for cello

[wizzarts]

Playing bassoon I was tought not to limitate a staff on five lines. With my inner eye I always see dozens of lines with a defined c (when it comes to alto- or tenor-clef)

Maybe it helps you.

[barrystronge]

I no longer play, but when I played bassoon I had no difficulty with the tenor clef for higher notes. I did have difficulty with inappropriate use of the clef for very low notes in music by Bizet and other French composers. The writing of notes on leger lines below the staff defeats the object of the tenor clef which is to avoid leger lines.

[Deleted]

I apologize for the late reply, and if you are still struggling, I hope I can help. First of all, I don't know any historic implications on the use of tenor clef, but based on my experience of playing cello (years and years and a college degree), the tenor clef is most often used as a bridge between bass and treble clefs, as the range of a cello (which I'm sure you know) extends below the bass clef and well above the treble clef. The tenor clef helps remedy extreme jumps somewhat. As far as learning what pitches are where, I mentally anchor myself to 'E' (the lowest on 'E' on the A string), which is the top line of the tenor clef. It makes it difficult to read notes on the staff itself, but everything from that E to the C a sixth above is more bearable. These days, however, between composing and cello practice, I read enough clefs that I barely "read" anything anymore; it's all instinctual.