The large distance between notes and music

[wizzarts]

Hello everybody,

I just loaded Josephs "Solo Amore" into Sibelius. While the sound is really big the playback itself is very static. This is caused by the notation-software which plays back exactly what is notated.

"Musical Notes are only a poor and insufficient way to notate music (somehow)"

So for a composer the worst thing that could happen is that musicians play exactly what is written, not less, not more.

How do musicians know how to play a specific piece of music? The golden rule for a conductor is: "Less talk, more play"

How much do emotions of a musician interact with the notes and the full orchestra where a lot of emotions, points of view about a given piece, crashes together?

What are you doing to notate the interpretation you want?

This questions are also a result from the yesterdays chat: f doesn't mean loud but strong and Andante is much slower than Adagio (when italians play) So in the italian words is much more than only a single instruction.

What do think?

3ndy

[Joseph]

Apr 5, 2013 12:37:06 GMT wizzarts said:

"So for a composer the worst thing that could happen is that musicians play exactly what is written, not less, not more.


How much do emotions of a musician interact with the notes and the full orchestra where a lot of emotions, points of view about a given piece, crashes together?

What are you doing to notate the interpretation you want?

What do think?

3ndy

I think I'll just wait 'til you tell me how poorly I did getting my intentions across 

[adrianallan]

For me, the fact that notation only gives a rough idea and not the full picture) is what makes classical music an art form.
It is up to the performer to add interpretation to the score; by using his judgement to repect the notes but make it "his own" and add emotion and nuance that cannot be shown on the page alone, but only suggested by the flow of the music.

On the other hand there are annoying inconsistencies that need to be cleared up.
A group of technology experts all agreed to the midi standard and that is respected as a universal code.

So why can't we have a more of a consistet musical standard?

eg. a standard for what a tenuto line means - does it mean held for its full length, or a stronger note given more weight? And why is the word ten used to create something like a pause, when clearly this is not the meaning of tenuto? That's my pet hate, as you know.

Lots more... such as the confusion bewteen phrase marks and slurs - Julian bream suggested that slurs should be dotted curves and phrases not dotted, but it hasn't happened so with some composers we are left guessing if he meant to play 10 notes in the same bow, or if it was just an indication of phrasing.

[Ed Sharpe]

Apr 5, 2013 12:37:06 GMT wizzarts said:

...

.

This questions are also a result from the yesterdays chat: f doesn't mean loud but strong and Andante is much slower than Adagio (when italians play) So in the italian words is much more than only a single instruction.

Well since I do not speak (or write) Italian, I do not use Italian words for my "tempo" markings, preferring to use English. Also I try to indicate more than just "tempo"; I have used things like: "Fast with intensity", "Slow and Hazy", "Slow, but steady" "with Intensity ? = 88" "Floating ? = 30" "Animated w/ a hint of joy = 180" "Moderate/Laid Back ? 100" "Not to fast, Deliberate = 240"

[Ed Sharpe]

Apr 5, 2013 16:17:00 GMT adrianallan said:

...

So why can't we have a more of a consistet musical standard?

eg. a standard for what a tenuto line means - does it mean held for its full length, or a stronger note given more weight? And why is the word ten used to create something like a pause, when clearly this is not the meaning of tenuto? That's my pet hate, as you know.

Lots more... such as the confusion bewteen phrase marks and slurs - Julian bream suggested that slurs should be dotted curves and phrases not dotted, but it hasn't happened so with some composers we are left guessing if he meant to play 10 notes in the same bow, or if it was just an indication of phrasing.

The issue becomes how many hundreds, if not thousands of symbols would be needed? I have a book I got when I was at university in the late 70's what is full of hundreds non-standard notational symbols used by contemporary composers.

The question becomes how much micro management of the music do you want to imposed on the performers and the composer?

[Ed Sharpe]

In many ways these issue are limited to western music; most music in the world is transmitted orally. With Notation we are trying to translate an aural medium into a visual medium, and as with any translation it is possible that something is loss in the process.

[adrianallan]

Apr 5, 2013 20:58:17 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

In many ways these issue are limited to western music; most music in the world is transmitted orally. With Notation we are trying to translate an aural medium into a visual medium, and as with any translation it is possible that something is loss in the process.

Which of course is a good thing, because what cannot be notated is the room for individual interpretation by the performer.

In truth, I dont really want anything too rigid, because a set of rules may take away from the fun of creating a score, which to me is another form of art, how it looks on the page, before it is even played. Some may disagree and just view a score as neutral symbols and lifeless until it is played.

Yes, little things frustrate me, te inconsistencies, etc. But then so does language I suppose. Do we view musical symbols as more of a language, or something of the rigidity of maths, where there absolutely has to be an international standard,, eg order of operations in an expression (brackets, indices, divide, multiply,add,subtract)? I suppose less is at stake at the end of the day, eg. A bridge may collapse if tensions and loads are not correctly predicted by algebra.

You are right, modern notation knows no bounds, and it is incumbent for each composer to provide footnotes for the more obscure squiggles.