Range for a general vocal piece

[adrianallan]

Hello

I am working on setting for voice and guitar some of the works of Robert Burns - maybe for a second book.
(the first book has sold a few copies, and I'm finally taking to in person to the music shops in Manchester)

So my question is this:

When writing a non-specific range vocal piece (not specifying if S, A T or B) - ie. guitar and voice in this case, do I need to worry at all about the range?
Can I presume that singer of different registers will just transpose up down an octave when needed?

I know that around 100 years ago, when sheet music was big business, the same piece for piano and voice was often re-published in all manner of keys for different voices.

I am attaching the start of a piece I am working on, to show what I mean.

Should I put the vocals an octave down for "general voice" or should I leave it as written.

I am tempted to leave as written as then I can advertise that the book will also work for flute and guitar and recorder and guitar -

so I hope all the pieces in the book will be in a range from middle C to the C 2 octaves above (C4 - C6)

ThanksAfton Water.sib (31.99 KB)

[Deleted]

It depends on what kind of material you're writing. On the face of it, a range of two octaves seems a lot to ask for from an average sort of singer who would be likely to be interested in slightly folksy songs like your sample. If you were writing something dramatic to appeal to a singer with a highly trained operatic sort of a voice, two octaves wouldn't be such a problem.

The sample goes up to G above the treble stave, so I would be inclined not to go any higher than that, and not to go any lower than about B below middle C. That would then be reasonably OK as written for either a soprano or a mezzo (obviously a soprano could go higher, or a mezzo lower, if you were writing for a specific voice), or it would be comfortable for a tenor if transposed an octave lower.

The octave transposition is really just for singers of different genders though. For a low voice, whether male or female, the music would have to be transposed to a different key, say a fourth or a fifth lower. An alto could then sing it as written (in the treble clef), or a baritone or bass an octave lower.

Hope that helps!

... Tony ...

[adrianallan]

Thanks Tony

Yes, that helps

So if I think around the written range of the descant recorder, I should be ok ?

I say this, as I hope my book can be multi purpose - ie. could be for guitar and another guitar, or guitar and voice, guitar and recorder, guitar and flute etc.

I'm also looking at my pop music book collection for a guide - as the music is never published with a type of singer in mind, but just voice and accompaniment.

[Joseph]

If I were writing with the hopes of including as many singers as possible I'd probably try to stick with (written) middle C up to D or maybe Eb . . . but if you have access to one check any church hymnal and scan through it to see where the melody line lies. Most hymn tunes are sung by all voices. Just a thought. I would never write two octaves for the general public.

[adrianallan]

Thanks, Joe

I didn't mean two octaves in one piece, but just as a general rule as to the range in which I am putting this music.

Now that you have told me the above info, I might change the key of the first piece - down to the key of G major - as that would make the top note a D.

[adrianallan]

Ok, but that makes the lowest note B below middle C - is that still ok, you think?

[allanh]

Tricky one this Adrian. The best key would be down a tone to Bb, but that is pretty bad for the guitar, although, it would be ideal for all your C instruments and singers. A top F is often used in hymns. If the guitar part is for teachers, then Bb.

[adrianallan]

Mar 6, 2016 19:46:30 GMT allanh said:

Tricky one this Adrian. The best key would be down a tone to Bb, but that is pretty bad for the guitar, although, it would be ideal for all your C instruments and singers. A top F is often used in hymns. If the guitar part is for teachers, then Bb.

I don't even like Bb on the guitar - as the instrument doesn't resonante nicely in that key as well.

Before I go ahead with this - would you say that G major and A major would both be equally ok for general pupose vocals?

G lowest note is B below middle C, highest D above

A major. lowest note is C# above middle C, highest is E above.

[allanh]

Basically any key is ok for singers as long as it is in their range. You mentioned Flute and Recorder earlier, lowest note on each is C (Flute without extension). A C# is very awkward on both instrument and the more #'s and b's, the harder it is on these instruments.

[adrianallan]

yes - that makes the piece hard to think of for multiple instruments and voice!

I do play flute and recorder a bit myself - and yes, middle C sharps are tricky notes!

[adrianallan]

Looking at some of my vocal books, they don't generally have notes above the G that sits in the top line.

I'm thinking of keeping it in C major after all!

But thanks for all the advice.

It may be too hard to have a collection of pieces that can be played on that range of instruments and voice. It is something that I will consider in the process of arranging.

There is a complete shortage of arrangements of Burns songs for even piano and voice.

Most collections are of the melody line and chord type.
It seems that folk musicians prefer this style of book.

[Joseph]

I won't quibble but I think the range I have proposed allows the greatest opportunity for all voices without multiple versions in different keys. I don't see a real problem with the B natural below middle C. As you start to write above the Eb you make it difficult for basses and altos to hang in. Too far below middle C and some sopranos and tenors will struggle. I'd err on the high side rather than the low side. And of course the referred ranges are at the octave below for the men.
As far as hymn writing as a guide, I flipped quickly through a Methodist and a Presbyterian hymnal looking only at key signatures (your choice, major or minor) and saw a preponderance of one or two accidentals (or none). An occasional four flats and a rare five flats but enough three flats to give it consideration. Now weigh that against what timbre you want from your guitar and I think you can come up with enough variation.

[Joseph]

Mar 6, 2016 20:20:59 GMT adrianallan said:

Most collections are of the melody line and chord type.
It seems that folk musicians prefer this style of book.

hummers and strummers . . . and the best chance at sales! 

[adrianallan]

Thanks for all the advice so far

I really am torn between wanting the music to work for voice and also general C instruments - because I see a lot of vocal music languishing at the back of music shops, unless it's in the pop section.

So here it is in C - any comments welcome

But I might decide to pull it down, given the advice on this thread. Afton Water in C.sib (34.33 KB)

[Joseph]

I think I'd prefer it in A . . . just my opinion. A good option for the guitar and the vocal range may be a bit better generally. See what you think. BTW, nicely done whichever key you choose . . .

[adrianallan]

Mar 6, 2016 21:47:14 GMT Joseph said:

I think I'd prefer it in A . . . just my opinion. A good option for the guitar and the vocal range may be a bit better generally. See what you think. BTW, nicely done whichever key you choose . . .

Thanks, Joe.

Will try it in both keys. A is definitely a better guitar key

[adrianallan]

I had a go at another Burns piece today.

Funnily enough, 2 flats do work well on a guitar when the key in G minor.

This is because the 6th string can be lowered to D and the fifth to G, to create lots of extra resonance.

So I didn't have to change the key or range from the piano original (from a very old book of Burns songs)

See if you think I'm on the right lines with this:

Lord Gregory.sib (33.96 KB)

[Joseph]

Mar 7, 2016 22:17:42 GMT adrianallan said:

I had a go at another Burns piece today.

Funnily enough, 2 flats do work well on a guitar when the key in G minor.

This is because the 6th string can be lowered to D and the fifth to G, to create lots of extra resonance.

So I didn't have to change the key or range from the piano original (from a very old book of Burns songs)

See if you think I'm on the right lines with this:

sounds good!  Can I be really picky (punny, no?)?  In the last measure I dislike the eighth note, D.  I like the ending to slow things down a bit, so I would just have a quarter note on beat 1 followed by the first inversion triad with a fermata.  I know, I know, it's just MHO.  It's your work, do as you see fit.  I'm sure you hear it differently than I do.  

[adrianallan]

Mar 7, 2016 23:04:36 GMT Joseph said:

Mar 7, 2016 22:17:42 GMT adrianallan said:

I had a go at another Burns piece today.

Funnily enough, 2 flats do work well on a guitar when the key in G minor.

This is because the 6th string can be lowered to D and the fifth to G, to create lots of extra resonance.

So I didn't have to change the key or range from the piano original (from a very old book of Burns songs)

See if you think I'm on the right lines with this:

sounds good!  Can I be really picky (punny, no?)?  In the last measure I dislike the eighth note, D.  I like the ending to slow things down a bit, so I would just have a quarter note on beat 1 followed by the first inversion triad with a fermata.  I know, I know, it's just MHO.  It's your work, do as you see fit.  I'm sure you hear it differently than I do.  

Thanks , Joe.
I will look into your suggestion
Please be as picky as you can
I go to guitar lessons still to be told how to do it better, or listen to my teacher's suggestions.
I post on here for exactly the same reasons.

[adrianallan]

This is another one that I did for the planned book.

Again, I have used a dropped 5th and 6th string, as it works well in G major

Another new thing that I have done is added guitar chord symbols - because on a music shelf it might ensure more sales for the strummers amongst us, but they are sometimes only an approximation of the actual harmonies.

See what you think - your feedback is always valued

Corn Rigs.sib (34.3 KB)

[Joseph]

so here's a quick question I neglected to ask before now. Are these all "new" compositions or arrangements of existing songs?

And while it doesn't much matter, if you want to avoid the "red" notes in your score you can adjust the range in the 'edit instruments' to accommodate your re-tuning . . .

[adrianallan]

Mar 10, 2016 23:00:51 GMT Joseph said:

so here's a quick question I neglected to ask before now. Are these all "new" compositions or arrangements of existing songs?

And while it doesn't much matter, if you want to avoid the "red" notes in your score you can adjust the range in the 'edit instruments' to accommodate your re-tuning . . .

These are re-arrangements of existing songs. I have looked at piano-vocal scores from about 100 years ago.

Go back another hundred years, and Robert Burns collected and arranged these traditional songs to make yet an earlier edition.

Thus my aim is to make a modern collection of Burns songs (even though his songs were mainly just arrangements) for guitar and vouce.

Thanks for tip about the red notes.

[adrianallan]

Here is another one

I'm just getting a feel for the genre at the moment and these are all works in progress.

If anybody has any suggestions, please let me know.

Attachments:

John Anderson My Jo.sib (32.94 KB)

[adrianallan]

I am pleased to say that book of Robert Burns songs is now finally ready

It has been through quite a few revisions and I now have something that I can be pleased with.

I will be sending copies to the University of Edinburgh school of Burns studies (I have already contacted them)

I am also contacting the National Trust for Scotland with a view to selling the book.

And I'm taking a trip up to Scotland soon to make a few more contacts, and will of course pass copies on to my guitar friends and teachers, including Craig Ogden at the RNCM

Thanks to Allan Jones on here for being a brilliant editor.

The preview is not working properly, (trying to sort this) but here is the book on Lulu

www.lulu.com/shop/http://www.lulu.com/shop/adrian-allan/the-robert-burns-songbook-for-guitar-and-voice-also-suitable-for-guitar-duo-or-fluterecorder-and-guitar/paperback/product-22660395.html

[allanh]

Now, this calls for a really good strong cup of coffee when you come up to Bonnie Scotland!!

[adrianallan]

Apr 23, 2016 19:10:49 GMT allanh said:

Now, this calls for a really good strong cup of coffee when you come up to Bonnie Scotland!!

Cheers

That or Islay whisky!