Expanding/developing a motif

[Kevin]

I sometimes come up with a little theme but do not have the knowledge to get the most out of it. Pointers please.

[Deleted]

So, before launching into my response here, there are two things, maybe three. First of all, this subject is probably more of a challenge for me than I expect it is for yourself Kevin. Secondly, in a way, we begin to get into 'trade secrets' and sometimes I'm not sure about that. Finally, there is nothing I am going to write here that anyone registered here doesn't already know about in some way or another.

So, for myself, when I approach a musical project for composition, I need to either have 'a picture in my head' of what I am going to do or I need to know 'my story'. This is relevant to your topic because without it, I suspect a motif could virtually go anywhere and not necessarily come to anything.

So, artistically as composers, we are 'painting with sound' or 'telling a story', again with sound. This is much easier to do if you have text and that is why most of my material has been generated that way. I truly admire the great composers throughout time who have made their accomplishments in other ways, meaning without using text.

So, as I see it, there are 4, possibly 5 aspects that would be important not just for developing a motif but for developing an entire composition. These are:

1. Design
2. Structure ------> Form
3. Mathematics
4. A Sense of Direction
5. Emotion and Spirituality

So, anyone can blow a few notes into an instrument, let's say a harmonica and voila, we have a motif. After that, it is up to the musician/composer where to go with it (direction)(melody, harmony, rhythm). Most people will probably just play with it and have fun with it. However, in stating that you want to DEVELOP your motif, you are indicating more serious intentions. So, this is where you go deeper and work through the other components that I have listed above.

For the moment, I will leave this post with these words as I have other things that I need to do today. I think your topic may eventually tie into Ed's topic about Form (which I have been meaning to contribute to but have been sidetracked with my day to day life activities .)

Oh yes, for those contributing to this thread, a few illustrations would be a nice idea. Also, consult the group piece we have done here of which Kevin contributed the opening motif. We saw a fair bit of what could be done with a few notes there!

[Ed Sharpe]

Kevin,

I assume you are familiar with most of standard technics of manipulating musical material? (Inversion, retrograde, augmentation, diminution, transposition, et cetera). Are you asking for something more.

If you like I could work with you off line on one you little themes to see what we can make of it.

[Kevin]

Thanks for the offer Ed. I am aware of a few of those terms but not exactly sure how you achieve some of them. I just want to know how to get the most out of a theme or motif.

[Deleted]

So, another approach of course is to look at what composers have done in the past in developing motifs. I would like to suggest that we take a few days, perhaps up to a week, to collectively analyze and discuss Johannes Brahms' Waltz in A Flat (major), Op. 39, No. 15. This is one of the beloved pieces of shorter classical music that all moderately accomplished pianists generally aspire to be able to perform. It is a piece that in terms of its basic motif is simple but somehow has enough complexity to have remained popular for over a century (alongside Beethoven's Fur Elise in a sense). So, I invite all who are interested to examine this lovely piano piece and to come back at any point with comments and screenshots to illustrate what you have derived from studying this gorgeous piece of music. From there, we can expand our discussion about developing motifs and themes.

[ceg]

Hi Kevin,

I'd suggest trying to work out ways of systematically changing it - so for example,

• if it is 4/4, try and make a version that it's in 3/4.
• I'm not sure how long your themes and motives tend to be, but try making them a bar longer, or a couple of beats shorter
• Try chopping them up into smaller segments and see what happens if you put them into a different order.
• Try repeating smaller sub-motives (i.e. sequences), remembering the rule of three.
• Take the shape of the motive or theme and put different notes to them, maintaining categories of step-wise motion, small leap, big leap.
• Try turning the shape upside down.
• Take what was a strong beat and make it a weak beat (and vice versa).
• Take the notes of the theme or motive, turn them into minims and then use that as a bass line over which you put a new theme.
• Take the rhythm of the motif or theme and throw away the melody.
• Write half a dozen different counter-melodies that could work with it,
• Then take each of those counter-melodies and write a counter-counter-melody that isn't just the original theme or motif.
• Imagine that the theme / motif is at the end of the piece and work out ways how you could get there.

What you should end up with if you try all the above is a whole load of material, a lot of which will be garbage, but hopefully not all of it. Pick the ones you like and work out which can co-exist in the same piece. Don't be afraid to delete and rework stuff, and to be open to the serendipitous.

Picking up Anne's comments, looking at how other composers have done the same sort of thing can be a good idea - from very different periods, I'd recommend looking at Beethoven (e.g. his late string quartets) Mahler (e.g. 9th Symphony) and Bartok (e.g. his string quartets).

Or take a piece you like / admire, try and work out how it's put together then create a pastiche of it, mirroring everything that you think the original does, but with different notes. Change your version until you like it as a piece of music in its own right. It actually doesn't matter if the way that you think the piece is put together is really how it was put together - the important thing is to have a model. Then apply the lessons you've learnt from the pastiche exercise with your motif / theme

[Ed Sharpe]

Mar 17, 2014 19:14:37 GMT @annegoodwin said:

... Johannes Brahms'...

Dear God Almighty anyone but Brahms!

[Kevin]

What a lot of stuff to think about. This would require me to work in a completely different way to the way I do at the moment.

Is there any way that I can get to where I want to be without so much planning? I never was one for studying other peoples music so that would be out for me.

Jotting down a theme then ripping into it would require a lot of time and at the end a lot of rubbish!!

I think I am probably just looking for my holy grail!!

[Kevin]

I thought it might help if I posted an example. No prep done, just writing as it happens.

Attachments:

Example.sib (107.69 KB)

[Ed Sharpe]

I will have to take a look at your Example tonight, as I can not open Sib file son the the system I am currently on.

Yes, composition is a lot of work. Composition is not just inspiration and "art" is it craft, it fact it might be mostly craft and a lot of hard work. And yes one does tend to end up with a lot of "rubbish" but that is how you get to the good stuff. In mining for gold something like 99 and 44/100 percent of what you dig up is just dirt, but you have to dig through that 99 and 44/100 percent to get at the gold.

[Joseph]

Mar 18, 2014 10:04:08 GMT Kevin said:

What a lot of stuff to think about. This would require me to work in a completely different way to the way I do at the moment.

Is there any way that I can get to where I want to be without so much planning? I never was one for studying other peoples music so that would be out for me.

Jotting down a theme then ripping into it would require a lot of time and at the end a lot of rubbish!!

I think I am probably just looking for my holy grail!!

Holy Grail = MYTH.  There is no magic and you know that to be true.  So I have to ask, what is it you were looking for when you posted this thread?  Certainly suggestions regarding the craft have been shared here.  Do you truly want to expand your work process?  I'm not getting that from you responses to the other posts.

Aside: no disrespect meant but Anne, please, I must echo Ed, ANYTHING other than Brahms!

[Kevin]

Surely a lot of composition is spontaneous? I am sure for some people the music flows as easily as breathing. I am trying to find a way of being as spontaneous in what I write but also developing a theme on the hoof.

Sorry if I am not very clear about my intentions Joe.

Thanks for the tips from you all. I intend to try a few of them and see where they take me.

[Ed Sharpe]

"... I am sure for some people the music flows as easily as breathing. ..."


Lets see:

Mozart,
...

In the last thousand years of written composition only Mozart comes to mind. :-)

[Ed Sharpe]

"spontaneous" the initial idea, yes, but it the craftsmanship that takes the spontaneous and serendipitous idea to a finished and polished composition.

[Deleted]

Okay Ed and Joseph ... is there a REASON why 'anyone but Brahms'? While some of his compositions are known to be sombre and serious, even dark and perhaps 'heavy', I've never encountered offence at the mere mention of his name before. In addition to the waltz, there is a gorgeous intermezzo I learned many years ago. And with my piano duet partner I've enjoyed learning some of the Hungarian waltzes. And what parent doesn't sing his famous lullaby to their babies? Please enlighten me as to why you carry an aversion to his music?

[Joseph]

Mar 19, 2014 1:59:14 GMT @annegoodwin said:

And what parent doesn't sing his famous lullaby to their babies? 

Actually, I sang Louie Prima's Buona Sera, Signorina, Buona Sera.  it was the only thing that put him to sleep (though he was probably just trying to escape my singing)!

As far as the B man, he just represents [to me] everything that is wrong with the programming of classical music.  That's not to say he is the only dead guy who is over-programmed, he just happens to be my focal point.  Yes, he wrote lovely and wonderful music but so do folks right here at SOS.  He's dead, these folks (and I use them as a representation of a broader scope) are not.  To be fair, I'd probably have the same reaction concerning most other composers you might substitute for Brahms.  But, if we must go with a Romantic, how about a Russian?  These days scores are often available for free at the IMSLP website and most anything can be heard for free at a variety of Internet sites.  I'm sure there must be something valuable if less familiar that could function as well in your proposal.  Joseph

[Kevin]

Mar 18, 2014 23:53:12 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

"... I am sure for some people the music flows as easily as breathing. ..."


Lets see:

Mozart,
...

In the last thousand years of written composition only Mozart comes to mind. :-)

Funny Ed because I thought just the same thing. If this was anything to go by anyway.

[Ed Sharpe]

Dear Kevin

I have been looking over the example you have posted and I am not sure I can identify a specific motif in the material that is identifiable as the underlying idea that that piece is built from. But perhaps there is a motif there that I can not yet perceive given the brevity of the material.

See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28music%29

[Ed Sharpe]

Attached is a PDF of a work in progress where I try to show the use of a very simple three note motif and how it can be used in built a short melody and how it can be transformed in various ways. This is just a preliminary brainstorm on the subject. So, please ask questions so that I can improved it.

The last second at the bottom of the second page is a just how to make a piano figuration out of the motif.


Motif_Expansion - Full Score.pdf (53.17 KB)

[Joseph]

maybe some retrogrades?  That was also on your suggestion list . . .

[ceg]

Mar 18, 2014 14:37:23 GMT Kevin said:

I thought it might help if I posted an example. No prep done, just writing as it happens.

Kevin,

Looking at what you have provided, you are already showing what can be done with expanding and developing a motif. The opening clarinet bar is a series of descending seconds (slurred) which rise up (D, Eb, F) which is repeated and then developed, rising up, with the descending 2nds becoming larger in interval, and extended, so that the pattern of U(p) D(own) U D U D becomes in bar 3 U D (big leap) U D D D.

Okay, it's obviously a counter-melody for something else, but it has lots of flexibility and possibility for variation, expansion and development. The opening of the Oboe theme too alludes to it, with the descending second returning to the original note, like a very slow mordent.

The eight-bar Oboe theme (repeated on the flute) splits into 4, the first two sub-phrases (or motifs) being very anapaestic,
on the beat. The third phrase, by contrast, has an anacrusis (upbeat), before the anapaest rhythm returns.

Ways that the tune could be expanded or developed is by taking the sub-phrases and extending them - so the last beat of bar 8 and the first couple of beats of bar 9 could be repeated in sequence, either in 4/4 (making the last note a minim) or in a 3/4, going across the beat. Individual bars of the tune could also be repeated in a varied form (e.g. bar 9) - you've already effectively started on this process, with bars 7 - 8 being a near repeat of bars 5 - 6 (I like the way that the only thing different is the low D versus the high D).

Although there are no dotted notes in the tune, notice also the implied
dotted rhythm of (for example) bar 5, which could be another way of extending or developing the motif into something else.

I would also explore the melodic minor scale - some of the would seem to work better as

And I would try developing a more independent bass line - there are a lot of parallel octaves between tune and bass which to my ears make it less satisfactory. You can then take that bass line, if you wish, and put something different over the top.

Lots of potential there!

Hope this helps - let me know if anything doesn't make sense

Charles

[ttw]

There are some good reference books online. Most are old, before 1927, but not bad,.

books.google.com/books?id=HV4QAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=music+melody&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k0MyU4D-MqLAyAG24oHoCQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=music%20melody&f=false

books.google.com/books?id=bWMJAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA96&dq=musical+composition&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x0MyU8zRL8viyAG-q4D4Cg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=musical%20composition&f=false

books.google.com/books?id=fQEtAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=musical+composition&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x0MyU8zRL8viyAG-q4D4Cg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=musical%20composition&f=false

books.google.com/books?id=0AU6AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22musical+composition%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z0UyU4PjKqGIyAGowoCgCA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=%22musical%20composition%22&f=false

ia601606.us.archive.org/19/items/structurestylest00stei_0/structurestylest00stei_0.pdf

[Kevin]

Thanks for the words Charles and the links Tony.

Small problem, well for me it is anyway.

Charles could you put a few ideas on paper as to what you were talking about (only a few)

Tony I am afraid me and books about music never got on at all. I am just a doer rather than a scholar.

[Joseph]

for some very easy to visualize examples of retrograde and inversion see page 3 (Blackberry Blossom) of this score I saw on ScoreExchange:

www.scoreexchange.com/scores/68921.html

[ttw]

A recent (as opposed to modern) online book: www.calvin.edu/academic/music/pdf/Figuring%20Out%20Melody.pdf

One seeming paradoxical thing I have noticed is that longer pieces of music tend to use shorter thematic material than shorter pieces. Beethoven's Fifth Symphony expands a couple of short motives into a complete movement. Songs (like La Comparsita) tend to use longer melodic fragments.

I think one reason is that (to paraphrase what someone wrote about tangos), a song tells an entire story in about two or three minutes; a symphony can take an hour to do the same thing. (Or 16 hours as in the Ring Cycle.) Mostly, a song doesn't have time to develop the potential of a motif whereas a sonata or symphony can fully explore the potential of its material.

[Kevin]

Example - Full Score.pdf (9.73 KB)

Would this be a correct way of dealing with a theme?

[Kevin]

Adagio for Wind Quintet.sib (100.52 KB)

Okay I guess I am not going to be able to deal with all the variations that are available on a concious level anyway. I throw the finished adagio for wind quintet at your ears!

[ceg]

Hi Kevin,

What do you make of this:

tweaked Adagio for Wind Quintet.sib (99.61 KB)

(you're allowed to say you hate it!)

I've tried not to stray too far from what you supplied. I've added in a couple of bars towards the end which basically repeat the immediately preceding two bars - it's not entirely convincing, but I wanted to give the idea that the section needed elongating and developing. The final section probably needs the tune as an 8-bar theme again before you get the shortened version of it.(love your last chord by the way!)

cg

[Kevin]

Thanks for what you have done. I shall do some work on it over the weekend. I like some things and not others by the way!
Glad the final chord pleased.

[Kevin]

tweaked Adagio for Wind Quintet again.sib (103.31 KB)

Tweaked a bit more!!