Using form

[Kevin]

I was wondering what opinion might be about the use of form in composition. Should it be used/considered when writing a piece?

[larapoe]

It can help organise structurally and make decisions when trying to look at the entirety of a large-scale piece. It's a sort of scaffolding for me, a lot of the time. Of course, musical decisions often lead me to deviate from it a lot.
I'd say it's useful for organisation. It should not be making the musical decisions for you- the musical material determines the form, not the other way around. The music itself comes first.

[Deleted]

Depends on your intent. If you are planning a piece for specific use, such as a marching band competition, the answer seems obvious. If you have musical ideas to express, seems to me that the form ought to be suggested by the music. In my case, I am more concerned with coherence and musical sense rather than form. Even when writing in a specific form, the form is subservient to the content. Otherwise, we could all sound like Kuhlau!

Richard

[Deleted]

I agree with Richard and larapoe. It really depends on context, but for the most part, the music should dictate the form, not the reverse. Personally, I like to think form is one of the best sense to achieve coherence, but this is not always the case.

[Joseph]

Jan 12, 2014 18:36:38 GMT Kevin said:

I was wondering what opinion might be about the use of form in composition. Should it be used/considered when writing a piece?

this is rather an open-ended question.  Hopefully everything we write has form otherwise it might just be chaos.  I can but would rather not assume you are referring to "traditional" forms.   Maybe you can better define what you mean by form.

[wizzarts]

Well, even Beethovens Sonatas are not really Sonatas when it comes to form....

[Kevin]

Definitely "traditional" ones Joe. I intended it to be open ended to stimulate opinion and discussion. From that comes knowledge!

[Joseph]

Jan 17, 2014 10:21:51 GMT Kevin said:

Definitely "traditional" ones Joe. I intended it to be open ended to stimulate opinion and discussion. From that comes knowledge!

since you put the question of form into dialogue I expected you had some ideas of what form might be.  I didn't think my reference to "traditional" would need further embellishment.  I have an old handbook ©1962 by the Crowell-Collier Publishing Company entitled Studies In Musical Form by Martin Sherman.  I found it hiding in a cabinet of unused documents when I was an undergraduate in the Stone Age.  From time to time over the years I have pulled it down from the bookshelf for any number of reasons.  It's listed alphabetically beginning with a simple strophic form: A-A-A-A-A, etc. and it's growth to include more lettered sections, i.e. A-B; A-B-A; A-B-A-C-A; A-B-A-C-A-B-A; A-A1-A2-A3-A4-A5-A6, etc. . . . There is a discussion of durchkomponiert, including vocal-forms dictated by text. The handbook then continues on with brief outlines starting with Air up through Voluntary over maybe 100 or so pages (they're unnumbered and I'm not up for counting them).

There is an interesting Preface written in 1963 by Dr. Alfred Mann who was a world renowned Bach scholar.  It begins, "The question of form has always embodied the intellectual approach to music.  Through the ages of music history, form has been the prime challenge of music, both to the composer and his audience.  Thus an inquiry into musical form - no matter how modest and direct - can never be answered by a definition.  It will invariably call for an explanation which opens a historical perspective."

Next, the author goes on to suggest in his introduction that "The basic and most clearly defined ground plans in music are founded on repetition, variation, and contrast - structural principles indigenous to all arts; they assume significance in music through the interplay of the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, tone color and musical texture."  There is more but I want to skip to the last sentences of his Introduction - "Form in music is an ever evolving, dynamic phenomenon.  In the past,aspects of form developed as a result of liturgical needs, social fashions, inventions of instruments, etc..  It seems safe to predict that new uses of music, new fashions, new techniques, and new inventions such as electronic instruments will lead to new titles and to new procedures of composition."

Now then, what did you have in mind Kevin when you opened up the idea of form for speculation?  I'm curious as ever . . .

[Ed Sharpe]

Jan 12, 2014 18:36:38 GMT Kevin said:

I was wondering what opinion might be about the use of form in composition. Should it be used/considered when writing a piece?

I don't know. Should one consider pitch (notes), duration (rhythm) when writing a piece of music?


"Form is just rhythm at another level".

[Joseph]

Jan 17, 2014 18:53:24 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

"Form is just rhythm at another level".

hard pressed to agree with this statement, Ed, seems a bit hyperbolic to assign such an esoteric position to rhythm. Joseph

[Kevin]

Jan 17, 2014 17:49:22 GMT Joseph said:

Now then, what did you have in mind Kevin when you opened up the idea of form for speculation?  I'm curious as ever . . .

Nothing really special Joe. Just curious as to what different people think and do when composing.

Is it all planned or spontaneous? Does it have to be written a certain way (form) etc

[Ed Sharpe]

Jan 17, 2014 21:17:40 GMT Joseph said:

Jan 17, 2014 18:53:24 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

"Form is just rhythm at another level".

hard pressed to agree with this statement, Ed, seems a bit hyperbolic to assign such an esoteric position to rhythm. Joseph

Define rhythm fist.


PS: It is quote from someone else (Jazz composer I think), I just do not remember who.

[Joseph]

Jan 18, 2014 16:39:15 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

Jan 17, 2014 21:17:40 GMT Joseph said:

hard pressed to agree with this statement, Ed, seems a bit hyperbolic to assign such an esoteric position to rhythm. Joseph

Define rhythm fist.


PS: It is quote from someone else (Jazz composer I think), I just do not remember who.

A, a war of the words, more semantics, eh?  Actually, you put the word out there so I will politely defer to your definition as a starting point if you'd like to frag this out . . .

[Joseph]

Jan 18, 2014 8:44:12 GMT Kevin said:

Jan 17, 2014 17:49:22 GMT Joseph said:

So, you're not really specifically asking about the use of 'form' then?  Why not re-start this conversation with your ideas?  maybe then others will join in and share their own thoughts.  Though, I am pretty sure if we search historical threads here we will find this question (Is it all planned or spontaneous?) already in discussion. Maybe you'll want to bring that thread to the forefront and continue on with it? Joe

[ceg]

I know that I would rather read a book that had some structure to it or listen to a talk that came to some conclusion. What would you think about a detective novel here you never found out whodunnit? Or even whydunnit??

Form can be very useful to provide a shorthand for the listeners. It might not be put there consciously by the composer, but it affects perception of the piece.

A classic form for a speech is "tell 'em what you're going to say, tell 'em it, tell 'em what you've just told 'em"

I suspect you disagree Kevin, but to me I don't think you can avoid form, as soon as you write da da da dum (or whatever). Embracing it helps so long as it doesn't become the master.

[Joseph]

Jan 20, 2014 0:39:08 GMT ceg said:

A classic form for a speech is "tell 'em what you're going to say, tell 'em it, tell 'em what you've just told 'em"

aha!  a corporate trainer uncovered 

[ttw]

Form, in my opinion, is often a creation of the analyst. In one sense, every piece of music has form; it may be the only piece with that form and the form may only have nonce existence, but for that instant, there is form.

When several pieces with similar patterns exist, an analyst can make a set of them. Sets of sets with similarities can be exhibited (although the taxonomic structure may vary with the person doing the analysis). Analyzing the taxonomic structures is one element of studying form.

The real question (in my opinion) is, "Why did these composers choose to use similar procedures?" Perhaps the answer is as simple as, "I needed to fill up more time without losing musical coherence." There are lots of answers.

[wizzarts]

Why has Da Vinci painted the apostles in the last Supper as he did, and not otherwise?

There is NO code in there or something mystical.

It was common sense... It was a garantee that all illiterate could identify them. They were painted as all the church-windows show them.

[Joseph]

again, semantics, subscribe to it or not, there is a history that cannot be ignored. Hence my previous use of the word "traditional."

[Ed Sharpe]

I am sorry i have not been able to followup and expand on my comments, but i have been under the weather all weekend (and the end of last week) and have not been up to the task. I hope to post something in a few days.