Chord Substitution Ideas

[adrianallan]

Since we were talking about chord substitution on another thread, I thought we could share some ideas on the practice here.

So what does it mean...obviously the practice of using one chord in the place of another for the sake of harmonic interest. The practice is most associated with jazz harmony, but it has also migrated into classical music.

My substitution example is that of tritone substitution

The theory is that a chord can be replaced by one a diminished 5th or tritone above itself.

To take the example of a dominant seventh of G7, it can be replaced by Db7.

the notes of G7 are G B D F the notes of Db7 are Db F Ab Cb

You can see that Db7 has some common tones with G7, the F and the Cb if we call it B instead.

It is common in Jazz to use a flat 9 chord instead of a dominant 7th, so G b9 would be G B D F Ab.

So as you can see the Db 7 is even more similar to Gb9, as they both have an Ab in them as well.

This is probably why the Db9 can be a substitute for a G7 chord.

The Db substitute is best used in a 2 5 I sequence, ie. Dm G7 C

So by using a Db substitute we get Dm, Db7, C.

This is why the final cadence in a jazz song often has this semitone stepwise movement of the chords.

What other substitute chords do people use

[Deleted]

Thanks so much for explaining this Adrian. I wanted to ask but was also afraid I would look 'stupid' for doing so!

So, for me, I learned music by learning to read it. And I learned to read music literally note by note, both horizontally and vertically. My instrument was piano and I did not have a good ear when I was young. So, even today, I do not approach music with a chordal approach as such and I also do not 'hear keys' or hear what key I am working in or hear what key something is being played in when I am listening to music. When I compose music, I learn these things about my pieces at the end of the process.

I did take guitar lessons for a couple of years, hoping to grasp the idea of chords a bit better. What happened was that just as I was beginning to enter into the phase of my life where I would compose, is that I realized that single notes are like letters of the alphabet and stacked notes (chords) are like words. At that point, I could not understand how the numerous piano teachers I had learned from had not taught me how to 'read the words' in the music I was learning!

So, that is my story on this. Of course, having taken advanced harmony classes at university, I understand chords intellectually. Unfortunately, this is not integrated within me at all. I can barely manage to put basic chords to very simple children's tunes. It frustrates me to no end (and this is putting it politely).

Again, thanks for your very clear explanation about this. I hope to learn more and I will continue to plug away doing chords at the piano even if the steps I take are small.

[Joseph]

there are any number of 'texts' available to help one understand the concept. If you can find an old Mickey Baker guitar instruction book I think the layout makes it all perfectly clear. Oh, of course there is Google, too

hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/substitutions.html

[adrianallan]

Jul 25, 2013 15:55:18 GMT Joseph said:

there are any number of 'texts' available to help one understand the concept. If you can find an old Mickey Baker guitar instruction book I think the layout makes it all perfectly clear. Oh, of course there is Google, too

hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/substitutions.html

Yes, there is a plethora of books and links.

I thought it might be nice to keep things as user friendly as possible without having to wade through a sometimes lengthy text book,

and find out what substitutions we, on Sons of Sibelius, tend to use more than others, ie. what works for us as composers.

[Joseph]

Jul 25, 2013 16:10:37 GMT adrianallan said:

I thought it might be nice to keep things as user friendly as possible without having to wade through a sometimes lengthy text book, and find out what substitutions we, on Sons of Sibelius, tend to use more than others, ie. what works for us as composers.

Gotcha, but I never conceive vertically  so I have nothing personal to share, which is I why I offered the text and the link. 

[adrianallan]

Thats interesting.

perhaps because of my background in guitar, even in draft stage, every single bar of my music has a chord symbol above it for my own guidance. I know that approach would limit a lot of people here.

If it is a classical piece, I leave out the chord symbols on the final version.

pop songs traditionally come with chord symbols, so I would leave them in for those.

[Joseph]

Jul 25, 2013 16:51:32 GMT adrianallan said:

Thats interesting . . .
pop songs traditionally come with chord symbols, so I would leave them in for those.

So never should have read hardly ever for if I am writing a Pop song I do work from a chord progression   Admittedly, I do think about jazz harmony in normal writing mode but mostly from the perspective of note alterations.  I am always aware if there is a traditional harmony element present and how the alterations might move me forward.  Its just that the harmonies come from the combining of lines, not from a conscience effort to write a progression.

[adrianallan]

Jul 25, 2013 16:59:44 GMT Joseph said:

Jul 25, 2013 16:51:32 GMT adrianallan said:

Thats interesting . . .
pop songs traditionally come with chord symbols, so I would leave them in for those.

So never should have read hardly ever for if I am writing a Pop song I do work from a chord progression   Admittedly, I do think about jazz harmony in normal writing mode but mostly from the perspective of note alterations.  I am always aware if there is a traditional harmony element present and how the alterations might move me forward.  Its just that the harmonies come from the combining of lines, not from a conscience effort to write a progression.

And for me too, the harmony and melody are inseparable in the composing process. A melodic line might push a chord sequence in a particular direction, and in another instance a melody might be influenced by a chord progression.

I work best when I am mainly being intuitive, but some knowledge of chord progressions are good to get you out of dead end in the composing process.

[adrianallan]

Jul 25, 2013 15:55:18 GMT Joseph said:

there are any number of 'texts' available to help one understand the concept. If you can find an old Mickey Baker guitar instruction book I think the layout makes it all perfectly clear. Oh, of course there is Google, too

hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/substitutions.html

Thanks for the link by the way

I never thought that Bb7 is also a substitute chord for G7, but again the notes Bb D F Ab have two tones in common with G7, but again, three in common with G7b9, that chord so loved by jazz people.

Not only that, but you could surprise your listener by modulating second time around, to Eb as Bb7 is the dominant of Eb, when the listener was expecting the Bb7 to be a substitute for G7.

These chord substitutions also offer endless possibilities for modulation.

[wizzarts]

One of the magic thing using substitutes is to change the function of each tone in a chord.

Quite often the chord-name changes but common idea is nearly the same.

When you take your II - V - I , lets say Dm7 - Db7 - C you can revoice the Db7 to B - Db - F - Ab you got a shortened G7/b9 (without G) (verkürzt in german, sorry). The function/direction of the 7th changes from downwards to upwards.

A bad example but I hope you guys know what I mean.

[adrianallan]

Jul 25, 2013 20:36:17 GMT wizzarts said:

One of the magic thing using substitutes is to change the function of each tone in a chord.

Quite often the chord-name changes but common idea is nearly the same.

When you take your II - V - I , lets say Dm7 - Db7 - C you can revoice the Db7 to B - Db - F - Ab you got a shortened G7/b9 (without G) (verkürzt in german, sorry). The function/direction of the 7th changes from downwards to upwards.

A bad example but I hope you guys know what I mean.

Do you mean upwards to downwards. ie. the B moves up to C in Db7 and the Ab moves down to G in the inverted chord.

Thanks for the example

[Kevin]

I think I will just make the tea. No idea what you educated people are talking about!

[adrianallan]

Jul 25, 2013 21:29:06 GMT Kevin said:

I think I will just make the tea. No idea what you educated people are talking about!

I did try to make it easy to grasp

And in all of this i am just self taught and still learning.

On a more simple level, we all substitute, like using an e minor chord instead of a c major, because it has two notes in common with c major, the e and the g. It breaks the boredom of just using primary chords.

In jazz, primary chords like c major are often made into major seventh chords just for colour. Ie. c e g b. lots of jazz tunes in c major will end on c major seventh instead of a plain c chord.

Those two examples are chord substitutions that we have probably all used.

The tritone substitution does take a bit more thinking about.

But the basic rule is this: you can use weird chords in place of normal ones if they have some notes in common.

[wizzarts]

Well Adrian, upwards is not the common direction of a 7. That's the point. The 7 usually builds a tension with the direction downwards to the 3, - the dominant-effect.

With a standard voicing you are absolutely right. When using the tritonus-substitute I almost always use a, in this case, Cmj7.

A tritone-substitude is a substitude of the dom7-chord where the base-note is a tritone away from the base-note of the dom7-chord.

Example: II - V - I will become II - bII - I. This means that you have already used the tritone-substitute. Dm7 - Db7 - Cmj7

This works because the tension-builder in the dom7 will stay, - the 3 and the 7. But the 3 becomes a 7 and the 7 becomes a 3 in the chord.

Due to a tonal cadenza the funtionality of both notes remain. That means that even when the B turns into a 7 (instead of a 3 in G7) the function of the note itself is the 3. So when using Db7 in C major the B tends to go upwards instead of downwards.

In the C major-scale the 3 of G7 is the "Leitton" (Lead note?) of C major and the 7 is the "Gleitton" (gliding note?)

When you have a Db7-C without something like a cadenza it just means nothing but Db7-C because the Db7 directs to a Gb (B goes to Bb and F goes to Gb).
But with a cadenza these notes keep the direction given by the scale.

German is much more precisely and this is way to hard for me to explain in english. Sorry.

But I bet my head some guys explain this much better.

PS: A scale is horizontally, a chord is vertically. But in a cadenza there is only horizontal movement because every single note of a scale follows its function.

[Joseph]

Jul 25, 2013 22:48:49 GMT wizzarts said:

". . . A tritone-substitude is a substitude of the dom7-chord where the base-note is a tritone away from the base-note of the dom7-chord . . . This works because the tension-builder in the dom7 will stay, - the 3 and the 7. But the 3 becomes a 7 and the 7 becomes a 3 in the chord . . . But I bet my head some guys explain this much better."

I think this is explained exactly right if you are planning to modulate..  In the case of Dm-G7 or Db7-C the B is the leading tone, period.  If you swap functions (in your head) then you are probably looking to modulate.  By the way, for the common practice folk, this "Db7" looks a lot like a Neopolitan 6th [with the 7th added] with the exception that our Db7 goes straight to C, the common practice version would go to G before getting to C (or Am).  

The link I posted with substitution examples is very simple and very easy to understand.  There are other sites also elucidating these principles.  Once you start cycle of 5th substitutions it gets thicker (and more fun)

[wizzarts]

Well spoken, Joseph.

but not only for modulation. Substitutes replace a chord in a candenza. So a normal song might look like this:

C - Am7 - F6 - Dm6 - C - Dm7 - G7(Db7) - C

You also could add some fun-stuff:

in half : C - B° - Am7 - Bb° - F6/b9 - A7/E - Dm7 - B° - Cmj7 - A9 - Dm7/A - Ab7 - Db7/Ab - G7 - Bb69 - C

I was tought that every note of a scale has a specific function/direction.

Adrian took focus on similar notes but the others are much more fun being that these notes keep the progression going no matter whether we are talking about a cadenza or a modulation.

I will check your link tomorrow.... It might be real fun...

[Joseph]

re: C - Am7 - F6 - Dm6 - C - Dm7 - G7(Db7) - C

the only point I was making is that 3 & 7 do not exchange roles if you are not modulating. "B" is the leading tone and maintains that character in either chord. If you flesh out the dominant harmony associated with the Db7 one will see that the root [implied] is still G (step 5 of the scale, hence the dominant) giving us an altered V7 chord with a b5 and b9. Much easier to call a dominant 7 when you're shout across the room over the drummer :-)
razz ma jazz!

[adrianallan]

The last few posts have been good at addressing a specific issue, but they will leave anybody new to this subject totally bewildered...my head was hurting too!

So I will just offer a piece of advice to those less familiar with Jazz

Instead of using a dominant seventh, throw in a dominant 7th flat 9.

Flat 9 chords are such an essential part of Jazz harmony, it is good to be familiar with them.

So next time you want to use a plain old G7 chord, use G7b9, in other words. G B D F Ab.

Try to find flat 9 chords in all the common keys instead of using a dominant seventh ..and your music will begin to sound more jazz influenced.

[Kevin]

I have just had an idea, Joe, when you see Mike again (hope he is okay) let him know about this thread because I think this would be right up his street.

Just had a look at wiki and there is quite a bit of stuff on this subject.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_substitution

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_chord

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_chord


But I expect that you have all looked at these pages!

[wizzarts]

Music is always under development. When we think about baroque and the way baroque-composers solved the way to write progressions and cadenzas, when we think about the vienna-classic period and how these composers used chromatic notes in a diatonic scheme, when we think about the romantic era up to Gustav Mahler when the emotional aspects become more weight than the clear diatonic structure we also see that there is one thing in common.

Beside the linear voicing (horizontal) versus chord-structures (vertical) there is always the function of a note that counts inside a modulation or cadenza, - even when using non-diatonic material. It is the function/direction of a single note that generates the function of a chord. This chord-function is a product of interacting functions of single notes (vertical) but also a product of a combination of chord-functions and their interaction of note-functions inside every single chord of this chord-progression(horizontal). So we see that our beloved vertical way of thinking does not really exist being that musical progression/development is always a happening over a timeline. (vertical is also used to compare different ways of voicing and harmonizing. This can be explained by someone else )

But notes and chord are like little kids. They are born without any function. They build a "learning group" (Regio-Emilia education) to develop their function in this group.
When we play one note it is just a note. When we play a second one this series becomes an idea. When playing a 3rd and 4th note we establish their functions.

This is similar to chords (guess why..)

When we play a C-major chord it is just a C-major chord. When we play a C-major chord followed by a G-major chord we can see that "non-educated functions" begin to live. Both chords begin to interact but until now nothing is really established.
But when we play this combination ( C-G ) 3 times we have established the functions (of interacting notes and interacting chords). When adding a different chord then every chord will be a surprise but D-major being that we found ourselves in G-major.

When it comes to modulation we have to re-interpret the function of notes and chords. Therefore it is very important to confirm the destination key by creating a cadenza.

But also in a candenza itself when can re-new functions of notes or chords. We can leave the key for a moment to go back in steps of 5th to our base-key. ("All of me" or "Autumn Leaves", "Ave Maria"/Bach-Gounod).

Another interesting thing is that we can add or replace note-functions in a chord by altering or adding other diatonic or non-diatonic notes. In our given harmony-structure those "new" notes immediatly "load" their corresponding function to interact with notes of the chord (where added) and the complete progression.
We will figure out that some notes are expanding the tension, others are smoothing it down. And some are guiding into a different direction.

When we keep this in mind we can create our own substitutes at any time where ever we want to.

So, lets fool around.... maybe just to confuse the musicologist of the next generation

[adrianallan]

Isnt it also Possible to have non functioning chords.

Take the 12 bar blues where every chord is made into a minor 7th chord, C7 F7 G7 etc

Are these not non functioning chords. To me functioning means that the 7th would fall to the 3rd in the chord a 5th below.

[Christian Natta]

Let me share my opinión, I've studied about substitutes. Subtitutes are not what his name describes for me. Of course I use a lot them, but substitutes have not the temple of original chords. Usually we use them because we are looking for another temple that functons replacing the original. But we can use when music goes and we feel we need them. It's not the same chord (you have to change the melody if you want a strong temple), just function on a way that playing them we reamain the original. And it's based on 7 th. 9th. 11th, 13th (or really tensions), or on greek scales. But you know they don't really sounds as replacement of the original, they have a different texture. For a simle example all can do is 2-5-1 and hange it for 2-2b-1.
Don't sounds equal. So I don't call them substitutions, I feel it's more tan alternatives to grow from another point of view on your composition. If you are fanatic of "subsitutions", I reccommend stydy the greek scales more tan natural harmonics. That worked for me. Also upper chords on second or third generation and them substitutes.
But on my opinión you can't change a melody strongly identify with a chord wit a substitution, you will not get the entire temple of what you want to say.
And just out of this but I've read on some post, for me music starts with rythm, then melody and harmonie. It's a point of view, that's all.
Best for all

[wizzarts]

Even the blues follows the rules of functions.

When we see only the chords we follow our western way of listening. So we find 7-chords which will never be resolved.

But when we add the right scale, the blues-scale, then everything is fine again and all functions are there in the way they are meant to be.

But beware... playing blues is one thing. Understanding the functionality you will need to understand the african pentatonic in its natural way which means you will have to give up everything you learned about western music and diatonic - in fact all the greek stuff we are dealing with. This is a hard way because you have to live this music. Yoiu cannot just learn it.

I have a lousy english and a lot of risque jokes are too high above me.

But also I have totally forgotten to mention that my previous post was for tonal music in the western understanding.
It was these functions the new music, such like 12-tone, had to deal with.

The problem is that due to the equal tuning a lot of the real tensions is lost. We now-a-days can not play a true lydian mode without re-tuning the instruments.

"But this is another story and should be told another time."
(The neverending story/Michael Ende)

[Deleted]

I've never heard of chord substitution before, so I may have misunderstood the whole thing, but I can't work out what you gain from imagining one chord and then swapping it for another. Surely for what I THINK you're talking about, it's just a matter of learning about the standard chords (ie triads based on each of the seven notes of the scale) to find out what makes sense in conventional music, and using the insight you gain from that to construct new chords, make them up as you go along if you like. To say that Mozart or whoever might have used a dominant seventh and then to add a minor ninth and change such and such a note into another one is just a distraction isn't it? Why not construct the chord the way you want it straight away?

[wizzarts]

Why not construct the chord the way you want it straight away?

You are absolutely right. Now-a-days we just do it. But music looks back at 500 years of development.

1000 years ago it was strictly forbitten to use a 3rd in a chord. A tritone was called "diabolo in musica".

For students learning harmony and music-theory it is always necessary to get the "why and when".

I am writing what I hear so I do not use all the theory-stuff. But I once learned how to use it and I listened to a wide spectrum of music. So I now kno how it sounds.

I guess some of the folks are interested in theory so this threat was born.

[adrianallan]

Jul 27, 2013 13:03:12 GMT @tonyj said:

I've never heard of chord substitution before, so I may have misunderstood the whole thing, but I can't work out what you gain from imagining one chord and then swapping it for another. Surely for what I THINK you're talking about, it's just a matter of learning about the standard chords (ie triads based on each of the seven notes of the scale) to find out what makes sense in conventional music, and using the insight you gain from that to construct new chords, make them up as you go along if you like. To say that Mozart or whoever might have used a dominant seventh and then to add a minor ninth and change such and such a note into another one is just a distraction isn't it? Why not construct the chord the way you want it straight away?

Learning about these chords is just the same as when you first found out about a dominant 7th. You could have experimented and found it out for yourself, and how it works on the 5th note of the scale and all keys and brings you back to the tonic. However, it Probably helped to read about the chords and understand how they have been used through the centuries and apply the dominant 7th to your own music.

In the same way I suppose it helps to know about how twentieth century composers and jazz players have used other chords. You can then consciously apply them to your music, as well as stumbling around and trying out what works best. In reality we all probably compose doing both, a but of stumbling around and a bit of conscious decision making based on our theoretical knowledge of music.

Knowling about chord substitution just gives us a few more tools in our tool kit,

[adrianallan]

Has anyone who didnt know about chord substitution, apart from anne, gained anything of benefit from these suggestions or tried them out for themselves

Im interested to know.

[Ed Sharpe]

For those of you who would like to know more about Jazz Theory (including Chord substitution I highly recommend "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine:

www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374940645&sr=1-1&keywords=jazz+theory

[Kevin]

I can appreciate all the theory(and experience) that has gone into these posts but As I do not deal with such things it does not help me. I am in awe of those of you that have such tools to hand without having to think about them!

[adrianallan]

Jul 27, 2013 16:00:38 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

For those of you who would like to know more about Jazz Theory (including Chord substitution I highly recommend "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine:

www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374940645&sr=1-1&keywords=jazz+theory

Somebody once lent me a copy of that and it sent my head spinning. Many years of learning in that mighty tome.