Tonal or Atonal

[Kevin]

I started this off in another forum. Boy did people get upset!
Anyway I will pop the question here, we are far more civilised and ready for a discussion.

Tonal/Atonal, what is your preference and why?

[Ed Sharpe]

First you have to define what you mean by those two terms.

While I was having a bit of a laugh in the other post, here we do need to clear on, that is, agree what the two terms (atonal/tonal) mean.

The following two piece (of mine) I consider truly atonal

November Second
www.scoreexchange.com/scores/41140.html

Evolution I
www.scoreexchange.com/scores/99099.html

While the following could be considered atonal since it follows Modal rules and not Tonic Dominate Harmonic rules

Jesus Wept
www.scoreexchange.com/scores/95103.html

(and in fact he recording does not even use "equal tempermant" tuning, does that make it atonal?)

[Joseph]

I will reference here my post earlier this morning in the other thread. I think the Grove article is a good place to start. It begins with a discussion of tonal centers. Joseph

[Deleted]

I would not consider the matter at all unless there were a specific need in a specific situation. I use whatever seems suitable to the impression I am trying to create or what the musical idea seems to dictate.

Richard

[Kevin]

Do you think that the two styles of music would mix at all then Richard?

[Deleted]

Nov 16, 2012 9:12:57 GMT Kevin said:

Do you think that the two styles of music would mix at all then Richard?

I don't see a problem with that.

Richard

[Kevin]

Can anyone show a mainstream example of a piece that has examples of a mix of the two?

[Deleted]

Berg Violin Concerto



Strictly serial, also in G minor (a fairly free G minor admittedly!)

Also one of my favourite pieces. I don't know how I managed to leave it off my Desert Island Discs list.

[Kevin]

Nov 14, 2012 18:29:42 GMT Joseph said:

I will reference here my post earlier this morning in the other thread. I think the Grove article is a good place to start. It begins with a discussion of tonal centers. Joseph

Could you paraphrase it Joe?

[Christian Natta]

Friends, for me is not determinating if It sounds tonal or atonal. It's difficult to say or define what is tonal concept nowadays. If is the old convention of tonal, I have to say that I write atonal, but my style of composing is all the time referred to a tonal centre. Maybe if you listen to my music, is difficult to discover which is, but I always work thinking in a tonal centre. Anyway, I have to say that I work always on the periphery of that, and beyond, so my works sounds atonal, but inside, I always feel the tonal centre, It's incorporated on me sice I was a child.

[Deleted]

It's interesting to compare your way of working with mine, Christian. You say that you're always thinking in a tonal centre when you're working, but I mostly don't.

What I write is also firmly anchored within some kind of tonality, but when I'm writing it, I mostly don't know what key I'm actually in. Usually when I do know, the result tends to be even more than usually trite & banal. When I think I'm in no particular key at all, that's when I'm in with a chance of producing something which I'll still think was OK, even months afterwards.

[Joseph]

Apr 7, 2013 9:17:11 GMT Kevin said:

Nov 14, 2012 18:29:42 GMT Joseph said:

I will reference here my post earlier this morning in the other thread. I think the Grove article is a good place to start. It begins with a discussion of tonal centers. Joseph

Could you paraphrase it Joe?

re: Grove, doubtful sorry.  But I would like to see a couple of Ed's comments expanded upon;

"While the following could be considered atonal since it follows Modal rules and not Tonic Dominate Harmonic rules"  Why would this be considered atonal when modes are absolutely based on a tonal center?

"(and in fact [t]he recording does not even use "equal tempermant" tuning, does that make it atonal?)"  Again, why would it?

Atonal eschews a tonal center.  The commencement of 12 Tone style made this paramount.  No one of the 12 tones (in the particular system) takes on more importance than any other tone.  Tonal to my ear (would that it worked properly) might just be noise in someone else's assessment.  

Obviously I agree with Ed, a precept must be agreed upon to discuss the topic.

[Ed Sharpe]

"... "While the following could be considered atonal since it follows Modal rules and not Tonic Dominate Harmonic rules" Why would this be considered atonal when modes are absolutely based on a tonal center? ..."

Again it comes down to how we define "tonal". The Modal rules do not follow the Tonic/Dominant model of the what could be called the "common period" of "tonal" music. The dominant seventh chord is completely missing from model music.

The dominant seventh chord's resolution to the tonic chord is a defining characteristic of major/minor tonality of the common period. It is this relationship (Dominant to tonic) that allowed the rise of modulation to other keys through the use of "secondary dominants" (Although modulation is no longer limited to the use of secondary dominates.)

So do we call any music (even if using the dodecaphonic technique) that seems to want to return to a particular tone or even vertical structure "tonal"?



//advocatus diaboli

[Kevin]

Does Atonal music have to sound dissonant or is that just the nature of some of the compositions?

[Ed Sharpe]

Quick answer: No.

Longer question:

Define dissonant. Tonal music requires dissonance; the dom 7th is based on the dissonance of the tri-tone and its resolution to the tonic.

Are quarter-tones dissonant?

Is equal temperament dissonant? To cultures using "traditional" tunings equal tememperment sound out of tune/dissonant/grating.

It something only dissonant if it does not resolve to a "consonant" ?

There was a time in western music when a 3rd was dissonant. At other times in western music the vertical structures form from independently moving voices did not matter, only each individual line determined if it was dissonant in its movement.

[Ed Sharpe]

Question:

Is my piece Inner Flow tonal or atonal? Dissonant or consent?

The root movement is by thirds, so there is no dom/tonic relationship of resolution. All the triads are minor, so there is extensive chromaticisim. Does it really feel like it wants to resolve to a particular tone or vertical structure (triad)?



//advocatus diaboli

[Kevin]

I think I have an old fashioned concept of atonal music Ed and that is something I need to address. I certainly would not call it atonal in the way I perceive it.

[Joseph]

Apr 7, 2013 17:53:43 GMT Ed Sharpe said:

"... "While the following could be considered atonal since it follows Modal rules and not Tonic Dominate Harmonic rules" Why would this be considered atonal when modes are absolutely based on a tonal center? ..."

Again it comes down to how we define "tonal". The Modal rules do not follow the Tonic/Dominant model of the what could be called the "common period" of "tonal" music. The dominant seventh chord is completely missing from model music.

The dominant seventh chord's resolution to the tonic chord is a defining characteristic of major/minor tonality of the common period. It is this relationship (Dominant to tonic) that allowed the rise of modulation to other keys through the use of "secondary dominants" (Although modulation is no longer limited to the use of secondary dominates.)

So do we call any music (even if using the dodecaphonic technique) that seems to want to return to a particular tone or even vertical structure "tonal"?



//advocatus diaboli

so, we need a dominant 7th to differentiate?  A lot of what I am hearing sounds all too concerned with the "common practice" period.  We don't define tonal in relation to a primary key/tonal center do we?  Tonal centers shift, no?  Modulation. Would that be atonal? I also have written a work which moves only in thirds harmonically.  It is very tonal.  Methinks the advocatus diabolus purposely runs amuk.  Good!  We all need to think . . .

[Ed Sharpe]

Apr 7, 2013 19:08:59 GMT Kevin said:

I think I have an old fashioned concept of atonal music Ed and that is something I need to address. I certainly would not call it atonal in the way I perceive it.

Thus the point of my very first question, if you going to ask "Tonal or Atonal"? Then you have to start by defining what you mean by those two terms.

In my experience (and not really anyone on this board, but other places) Atonal has been used basically as a derogatory term to apply to ANY music that the writer of the post did not like or did not understand (or both).

Note my piece "November Second" is the only piece I have written that would consiber being close to being "atonal".

[Christian Natta]

I was only wondering one more thing, pianoforte broke the rules of physics, the frequencies were adapted to fit in. So, naturally the circle of fifhths made dissonances, you can check thirds, the most easy example. from that time, we're away from tonal or atonal. So if we search on owr nature, what sounds wrong for me is actual conventions. I also have to say that I have incorporated as a little boy this new rules, but in fact that rules goes aainst owr nature.
And to tonyj, I want to clarify that it's unusual to find a work made by me that is tonal. But of course, I feel tonal things inside when I compose, because of my education.

[Kevin]

In my experience (and not really anyone on this board, but other places) Atonal has been used basically as a derogatory term to apply to ANY music that the writer of the post did not like or did not understand (or both).

That is a very narrow minded outlook don't you think? I think that it is showing a lack of understanding about a piece of music or a style.

As I have said many times I prefer Tonal music against what I perceive to be Atonal but that is because I do not understand enough about it and what drives people to write in that style.

[ttw]

I would like to suggest that the musical term "dissonance" means "implies movement" This means that a section of music can be called dissonant if that section implies movement. Note that the terms are intentionally vague. A section could be a chord, even a tone, or a whole piece; the timescale is up to the composer. Just because movement is implied does not mean that movement occurs; a dissonance need not be resolved. Whether a section of music is dissonant depends on the expectations set up by the piece itself.

[Deleted]

Though these may not be the best sources (I know nothing of the validity of sources), I thought this discussion would benefit from two different sources' analyses of tonality/atonality. I apologize to anyone who wanted a short answer.

From "The Norton/Grove Concise Encyclopedia of Music" Copyright 1988

"Tonality. Term to denote the series of relationships between pitches in which one particular pitch, the 'tonic', is central. The term is most usually applied to the system used in Western art music from the 17th century to the 20th. In this system music is said to be in a particular key,or to have a particular tonality, when the pitches predominantly used form a major or minor scale; the key is that of the tonic or the final of that scale and is major or minor according to the pitches of the notes that the scale comprehends. 'Tonality' takes in the word 'key' but also has wider implications, especially concerning the functional association of other notes and chords with the tonic. The word is also sometimes used to embrace the modes and to describe groups of notes linked by consonants in a hierarchy.
The word 'tonality' is used in various compounds:atonality means non-tonality, and is applied to music with no key center (Schoenberg used 'pan-tonality', all-tonality, in a similar sense); bitonality applies to music where two notes (and polytonality to music where more than two notes) exercise a tonal pull comparable with that of the tonic in tonal music."

Also:

"Atonal. Term applied to music that is not tonal, i.e. not in a key. The term is in some circumstances avoided for music that is serial; and it is sometimes reserved for the post-tonal but pre-serial music of the Second Viennese School (Shoenberg, Berg and Webern). The term 'pantonal' is occasionally used in the same sense."

From "Harvard Dictionary of Music" Copyright 1972

"Tonality. Loyalty to a tonic, in the broadest sense of the word. One of the most striking phenomena of music is the fact that, throughout its evolution - in non-Western cultures, in Gregorian chant, and in harmonized music - practically every single piece gives preference to one tone (the tonic), making this the tonal center to which all other tones are related.
Although nearly all music in this sense of the word is tonal, the means of achieving tonality have greatly varied throughout history. Whereas in Gregorian chant and other monophonic music the relationships are purely melodic, a much more complex situation is encountered in harmonized music. About 1700 came general acceptance of a system of tonal functions based on the establishment of three main chords - the tonic, the dominant, and the subdominant triads - as the carriers of harmonic as well as melodic movements. Broadened by the ample use of chromatic alterations and modulation into other keys, this system prevailed throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. For subsequent developments, see Atonality.
In current usage the terms "tonality" and "modality" are mutually exclusive, the former referring to music written in a "key" (major or minor mode) and the latter to pieces written in, or showing the influence of, the church modes. This usage is obviously not compatible with the broad definition of tonality above, which includes all tonal relationships, whether "tonal" or "modal." If the explanation of mode as the constituent scale is accepted, then tonality exists in different "modal" varieties, based, e.g., on the church modes, the major and minor modes, the pentatonic mode, the whole-tone mode, the diatonic mode or, as in some modern music, the chromatic mode. Tonality also exists in the quarter-tone mode (e.g., in the Greek enharmonic genus), although modern quarter-tone music tends to be atonal.
Other uses of the term "tonality," e.g., in the sense of "tonal system" (almost synonymous with what has been termed modality above), or in the sense of major-and-minor tonality (as opposed to modality in the accepted meaning of the term), also have become firmly entrenched in current usage."

Also:

"Atonality. Literally, absence of tonality. Tonality is a particular expression of the general principle of relaxation of tension, tension being a particular state that implies its "resolution," i.e., a return to relaxation, a stable state. Harmonically, the fundamental expression of tonality is the dominant-tonic relationship. When the harmonic relationships of a composition can be considered to derive from this fundamental relationship - remotely or closely, for a long or a short time - the music is said to be tonal.
In the history of Western music, tonality dominates a period of about two centuries, from the end of the 17th to the end of the 19th century. More precise limits cannot be set, since the development is a continuous one. The works of J. S. Bach represent a peak of this development. It is in the works of Wagner, Debussy, and many of their contemporaries that a progressive breakdown of tonality begins to appear: constant modulations denying, in the long run, any possible reference to a tonal center; harmonic structures that are less and less reducible to a cadential scheme; piling up of chords without polarity, i.e., without definite tension toward a resolution, like the chords of a diminished seventh, ninth, etc. Tonality was used less and less by Wagner's successors, notable Schoenberg, and thereafter the evolution from tonality to atonatlity continued. It might be said that the harmonic framework of "Tristan - a fortiori" that of Schoenberg's "Verklarte Nacht" - is already atonal, insofar as the tonal centers are no longer clearly evident to the listener. Nevertheless, the term atonal is generally (and preferably) confined to music that totally banishes tonality. Thus atonality, both as a concept and as a descriptive term, although at first challenged by Schoenberg himself, begins with the works he composed after 1909 (Pierrot lunaire, etc.).
The conscious suspension of tonality did not, however, at once bring a single substitute for it. It was only years later that Schoenberg proposed a new principle of organization. It is significant that c. 1900 the American composer Charles Ives, working quite independently of Schoenberg, wrote sections in certain chamber compositions in which tonality practically suspended."

[ceg]

I feel comfortable with both tonal and atonal - my problem is where I can't understand the structure of the piece, at least at some level, just by listening to it. So I struggle with (say) Wagner operas, or Vivaldi concerti, or total serialist pieces, or something like Messiaen's Chronochromie.

The stuff I write I tend to think of as in some sense tonal, or at least having pitch centres, though I don't know if that is how other people hear it! And occasionally I deliberately write stuff which is atonal.

I think one problem occurs where a single piece tries to be both - there is an hilarious Penderecki piece which is mostly atonal but with a giant C major (or E major?) chord in it shortly before the end that just has me in stitches for being so awful.

A third alternative is not to think in terms of tonal or atonal. One obvious way is writing for unpitched percussion! But a wider view of a different way of working with sounds, music and noise can be found in this You Tube of John Cage, towards the end of his life, talking about his view on things (and not just silence, despite the title):



Edward De Bono famously introduced the idea of "Po", which is neither "yes" nor "no" (or perhaps both "yes" and "no"!) and a similar approach to the tonal / atonal dichotomy can help move music forwards.

ceg

[Kevin]

Just listened to a radio 3 programme on prepared piano. Is this music? It seems to sound a bit like Gamelan to my ears.

[Ed Sharpe]

Apr 27, 2013 12:47:11 GMT Kevin said:

Just listened to a radio 3 programme on prepared piano. Is this music? It seems to sound a bit like Gamelan to my ears.

If I remember my history (which is very doubtful) I believe Cage was going for a Gamelan/Percussion sort of sound.

What I remember reading is that he need to come up with some music for a traveling dance group, and although he wanted to used a bunch of percussion and percussion players that resources of the group did not allow this, so he came up with the idea of turning the piano into different type of percussion instrument.

With today's samplers and keyboard controllers I would doubt he would have come up with such a solution, Just load up some Gamelan samples and you are done.

[Ed Sharpe]

I am too lazy today to review everything written so far, but I will pose the following question that was asked on another chat page:

Where is the dividing line between tonal and atonal?




//advocatus diaboli

[Kevin]

If there was a dividing line some where I would be interested to know of it. I am betting it is further back musical history than we think.

[ttw]

Is Harry Parch's music tonal?

[Kevin]

Do tell us about him Tony. I for one, having led a sheltered life, have never heard of him before.